Tonight

[Solomon Gargoyle]

The Gargoyles are safe and away, good job. I missed much of the fighting. What happened exactly after we left in the truck? Also, what was the full deal the archon offered us?

[Theseus Ahroun]

It was actually a Justicar not an Archon. Long and short of it he basically offered us a way out of the current fighting if you believe him if we join the Camarilla. He is offering to reign in the Tremere and drive the Sabbat out of nearby locations while allowing the current leadership to stay in place.

Honestly this offer sucks but I've heard far worse and the current course of actions chosen have placed the city and it's members, combatants and non combatants alike, under siege by the Tremere. If we chose to turn down this offer we on an island alone against the strength and resources of clan Tremere.

[Solomon Gargoyle]

That's true but some of us would be no better off if we joined the Cam. I don't think Patrick would join them anyway, I"m unsure if Nathaniel would join them either. I doubt I would be allowed to remain a Elder. More likely I would be enslaved and bound again as would the other Gargoyles. Quite frankly... Fuck that.

[Theseus Ahroun]

So Solomon, you would prefer we fight and many who have no stake in this to die because you are worried about not being Elder, Primogen, or whatever other fancy fucking title you want to put on it?

[Solomon Gargoyle]

And so your saying I deserve to be a slave is that it? Easy for someone to speak as you do who would not be enslaved in a Camarilla city. You seem to have completely ignored that part of my argument.

[Theseus Ahroun]

You placed your position first in your argument so I addressed it first. To the point of you or any other Gargoyles being enslaved if a Prince of the Camarilla was to grant Acknowledgment to any of you, you would then have the same protections any other member of the Cam has.

Don't get me wrong I'm not jumping for joy over the possibility of rejoining the Camarilla. I'm merely admitting it is currently the simplest option on the table to help grant safety to the members of this domain.

I do have some idea's to the effect of middle of the roading this situation we're in but I'll wait to see more people's opinions on this first as some seem eager to argue over the words I choose to use.

[Solomon Gargoyle]

I wouldn't expect anyone to die for a title like that. But fighting for the equality to be ABLE to get a title or position of importance? I'd fight to the death for that and I don't believe the Camarilla would give me that ability to even earn such a title. Now do you see where I was coming from?

[Francois Marseille]

I certainly don't want people to assume that I wish to rejoin the camarilla, but I do wish to comment that it is not the camarilla that would deny you freedom Solomon. It is the Clan Tremere. The clan that is attacking our city and threatening our people. The very clan you were once part of.

So forgive me, but I feel as if your "View" of the Camarilla is certainly not an impartial assessment. You have suffered some abuse at the hands of the Tremere, but I fail to see how this justifies your opinions of the Camarilla.

I do not wish to rejoin the Camarilla, however.....I also do not wish to end my existence due to a Clan Tremere feud with it's own kind.

If we can have peace, prosperity, and stability without compromising too many of our values...then the matter should be considered.

However, taking the stance of a stubborn child, and refusing to budge on the matter is not going to be a healthy decision for any of us.

[Solomon Gargoyle]

I don't believe the Camarilla would grant me freedom at all. I would be assumed to be a slave and if any Tremere came along I doubt they would do anything about it at all. I also do not think I would ever be taken seriously either or allowed the ability to ever hold any position of power. I have no desire to rejoin the Camarilla. It would take an especially open minded Price to even remotely sway me.

[Marius]

To clarify, Justicar Pashek made his offer to me and I refused it. I do not want to be Prince, and I would certainly not wish to be in the shoes of Adrian Foss' successor, whose position is maintained by Justicar De Witt and nothing more.

While we are seeing a great deal of fighting, and one death has resulted from this fighting, the truth is that we assume the motivations behind this are the Tremere. It is just as likely that the actions of the Tremere are an excuse for the Camarilla to bring pressure on us to relinquish our freedom.

In the last two weeks I have torpored seven tremere, and as long as they keep trespassing against us, we can continue to respond with that level of violence. As soon as we forsake our independence, we lose the privilege of choosing for ourselves how we will handle their attempts to dominate the free Tremere. Instead we would have to negotiate, bargain and politic against the elder of the Camarilla.

I have no doubt that the Tremere have motivated our current situation, but they are just one of many clans in the city who have unfinished business they cannot conduct within the city's borders and working outside the borders is going to draw Camarilla attention. I hope that the members of this city are strong enough continue to oppose the Camarilla, and not fold immediately in the face of only one sixth of their constituents opposition.

Regardless, I shall make my own intentions known. If the council decides to rejoin the Camarilla, I shall not oppose you. However, I shall not lead this city in that case either. I would rather start over than try to sort out the political knot that has been created with my swordhand tied.

[Vai Castillian]

Wow, Theseus. I expected the kinds of arguments you're making from someone like Francois, but I didn't figure you for being such a coward.

Don't get me wrong. I'm as pissed off as the next guy that the Tremere brought this bullshit on our heads. It was irresponsible, and I don't doubt that they walked into it thinking (without bothering to ask us) that they'd be safe in Sacramento because the whole city would fight for them if the Pyramid Tremere came calling. But what's done is done. And honestly, if I'd been given a choice between the Gangrel murdering Raven and this bullshit with the Tremere, I would have picked the bullshit with the Tremere. The Tremere are a transitory problem we can deal with one way or another, but the loss of Raven is gonna leave the city weaker forever.

The Tremere incursion problem isn't your problem -- isn't any of our problems -- or more, it shouldn't be. But nevertheless, we're left to deal with it. And I get not wanting to risk your neck in doing so, but instead of urging the entire city to run away with you, I suggest you withdraw to the forest to commune with nature or whatever it is that you Gangrel do in your spare time, and leave the rest of us to do the dirty work. You can come back when it's over and tell us what a terrible job we did.

If we run to the arms of the Camarilla, it's true that you don't lose much, and you actually have a lot to gain. The position of Gangrel Primogen of the capital city of California would have some pretty hefty prestige that's exportable, should you want to do some traveling. But there are a lot of others who won't be so well off, others who, if we were to pick the solution that you're calling the easiest way, the way demanding the least sacrifice, would have to leave the city. You accuse Solomon of being selfish, and I think maybe you should look in the mirror when you say it.

The Nosferatu vote no to joining the Camarilla. I can work with them just fine, but I like Sacramento the way it is, since an independent city keeps my options open.

[Theseus Ahroun]

I have the strength to defend myself and my clan from this force. I cannot defend an entire city with what I have at my disposal. As I don't really care what you think of me I don't feel inspired to defend my honor to you I will leave you with this question. Is keeping your options open motivation enough to see the city burn? Also how many of those who were defeated in the first battle were raised back up to fight you in the second battle?

[Vai Castillian]

So your argument is 'better Camarilla than nothing at all'?

I think I've already explained that flies pretty well with you, since you get to be a Primogen and have status that'll be respected outside of Sacramento and all the goodies that go with it, but for a lot of the court here, a Camarilla version of the city might as well burn for all they can live in it, and some don't have anywhere else to go.

For me, personally, I'm not tied down here. If the city burns, I move on -- same as I'd move on if it went Camarilla. Bit of a waste of resources, but not all gambles pay off.

[Marius]

Most of them probably. And the two I torpored in this second battle have been revived also, I have no doubt. But they have lost the initiative. They have no locations to assail, no addresses left to stalk, and they are forced to hunt in this territory without a campus dormitory to supply them.

Guard your domains, I am sure that these hungry Tremere will prey on them this week. Better for us all if we pick them off one by one. I shall bring a Tremere prisoner to court next week for interrogation.

[Solomon Gargoyle]

You managed to capture one of them? That's good news.

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