A different tack...

[Wade Wilson]

Perhaps violence is preferable to the rest of you but I got plenty of it in L.A....

Should we tire of our attempts to destroy our problems rather than manipulating them into manageable issues then I would recommend two things...

First, those targeted/wanted by the Tremere clan for whatever reasons should promptly 'disappear'. Whether they choose to move, or get better at hiding I don't care../but their presence threatens the city's security and we need to start thinking about the ENTIRE city, rather than a handful of it's guests.

B: The Camarilla is looking to have us join them...not the best move, for either of us.
Our independance spares us from a lot of the droll and pomp that the Camarilla tends to suffer from, while also giving the Camarilla a city to help buffer it's own borders against the Sabbat. Our independance should be allowed to remain provided the Camarilla can be shown that it holds value to them as well (In aiding to find potential attackers or infiltrators before they get too far).

3rd: Organization seems limited in this city...that or perhaps communication is simply hampered. Either way its unclear who the hell does what and whether anyone in particular can be relied for anything specific...this should be changed. If you are a member of this city, you should be expected to contribute...if you don't want to contribute I'm sure you can find a spot for yourself in L.A. The Camarilla needs to be alerted of the Tremere's recent work in our city.. (Videotape of which I would be happy to supply) and it needs to be made clear that the Tremere will be left alone, only once they have left our city and agree not to return.

That's my two cents. I don't care who wanted to hear it or not...it needed to be said.

Now if you all still opt for violence, I'll set my tent up outside.
It hurts my head enough that I have to be the RATIONAL voice...

[Vai Castillian]

If you can't handle the nonstop beating of the drums of war, you're better off in a more peaceful city -- like LA, for example. Here in Sacramento, We Are At War, The Enemies Threaten Us Constantly, The Turks Knock At The Gates, If We Go Soft Then The Terrorists Win.

I'm pretty sure the Camarilla know what's going on in town, but there's not a hell of a lot that can be done. The Tremere Justicar is lording it over everyone in Bakersfield as we speak, and the only way you can hope to counter one Justicar, really, is to get two or three together and talk them into doing shit for you. We don't have what that would cost. Or I don't anyway. Maybe you've got a couple chapters of the Book of Nod lying around somewhere, or the location of one of the Sabbat Clan originators in your rolodex.

[Solomon Gargoyle]

This city actually has a few guests that the Cam probably wouldn't like anyway. Like former Sabbat, Tzmice, a Lasombra and probably even a few refugees who did shit to piss off the Cam while they were in it. This city really isn't meant to be a place where people have to hide, but I still get your meaning. I don't actually think the Tremere would care about us Gargoyles quite so much as the non Pyramid Tremere here teaching secrets. There are free Gargoyles in some cities out there, as long as they are granted Acknowledgement by a Prince or other court officials before the Tremere get to them.

[Theseus Ahroun]

Actually Solomon I believe the general consensus isn't that this is meant to be a place where people don't have to hide. I could be completely wrong here but I was under the impression the common factor with those gathered here is the city was willing to forgive your past, as it were, so you can come here for a fresh start. I've heard no ramblings of forgiveness or overlooking actions taking while in the city so in that regard the city doesn't forgive the present or future.

What I'm trying to get at is the nature of the city doesn't excuse people running around doing whatever the fuck they want without reprocussion or at least being a little subtle with what your doing. Unfortunately every action does have a consequence.

[Marius]

Theseus,

Once upon a time you were the loudest proponent of proactively protecting the city's interests by maintaining a strong show of force. Unfortunately, that seems to have been yet another of your ploys. This is the second time in this city where you have shown no interest in protecting those who claim independence from vampiric society at large. I recognize that you feel vampire's should face the consequences of their actions. But as long as they are in this city, it is my right to determine what those consequences should be, not yours, and not the Pyramid Tremere, not a Justicar sitting in judgment.

Damn the Tremere and their claims. Damn their consequences. Damn their oppression. They are everything that is wrong with the Camarilla. For no other reason that that I will throw their judgment in their face. I did not have the power to take such a stance in Raven's defense, but when it is within my power I will protect the members of my city. I don't expect you to understand that Theseus. Not anymore.

Marius

[Solomon Gargoyle]

Thesues: When did I say anything about anyone doing whatever the fuck they want? What I said is basically I should not have to hide what clan or bloodline I am from other kindred. If we joined the Cam like Wade said, a few of us would NOT be welcome simply because of what we are, or we would certainly be treated differently. You have totally taken my words the wrong way. I never meant do as you please.

[Theseus Ahroun]

Solomon, I don't believe Wade suggests the city joining the Cam. He hints as using them through a variety of means to help remove the Tremere problem.

Marius, I'm still a fan of a strong military front against those who threaten the domain at large. These Tremere currently invading the city initially were a threat to a portion of the cities populace, not everyone in it. Due to a combination of there actions and the cities responses to them they now pose a threat to the entire domain and as such there unlifes should be forfeit. However we do need a way to keep them from simply replenishing there numbers or bringing in further reinforcements which won't be solved by violence alone. We aren't the same person and as such I don't expect us to see eye to eye on many things. Also keep in mind long ago I told you with the changes you were making I wouldn't fight as it would lead to me being held accountable for those who fell before me, even the enemies of the domain.

[Vai Castillian]

Dude, Theseus, you were the one who was suggesting we join the Camarilla.

Solomon, it occurs to me that it might be possible to convince the Tremere to back off if y'all stop calling yourselves Tremere and start calling yourselves Gargoyles. I know that the Pyramid Tremere have a hard-on for taking out any 'heretics' of their blood, but a gargoyle technically isn't a Tremere heretic.

I don't know if something like that would do any good -- it depends on whether there's an ulterior motive for the Tremere to be invading the city. If the whole 'wiping out the Circle Tremere' thing is just an excuse, then probably it won't do much good. Of course, if they DID decide to keep coming in that situation, we'd know that there's some other reason they're here, something they're not telling us.

Which is all moot if y'all wouldn't take the deal if Marius could swing it. Would you guys be willing to embrace your clan, call yourselves Gargoyles instead of Tremere?

[Solomon Gargoyle]

I don't think it's the calling ourselves Tremere. It's the teaching of Thaumaturgy. The Tremere really don't hunt down those outside of the Pyramid unless they are doing things like teaching thamaturgy, giving away other Tremere secrets or engaging in Infernalism.

[Marius]

Though they are invaders, these Tremere have efficiently and effectively cleaned up after themselves so there is no threat to the Masquerade. They are not, in fact, a threat to the domain at large. They are a threat to the Gargoyles and Tremere who, according to you, deserve their ire as 'consequence' to their actions. You are free to feel that they deserve persecution, you are free to withhold your assistance to the Elder of the Tremere. You are even free to hide in your domain and do nothing as members of the Camarilla hunt for independents in this city. Just as everyone else would be free to do so, if they were here hunting Gangrel.

I will not tell you what you can and cannot say. I will state however that you are not in a position to dictate the appropriate 'consequences' to the Tremere of this city, that responsibility falls to me. Though your age and wisdom may incline people to listen to you, those listeners should be aware that you do not dictate policy in this realm. It will never be my policy to allow any foreign kindred to attack members of this city inside our borders without suffering my wrath.

You raise a valid point about blocking Tremere from restoring themselves to full fighting capacity. And those who care about this city have set in motion opportunities to do so. You are welcome to hang back and do nothing, if that will make you more comfortable. I wouldn't want you to have the blood of invading Tremere on your hands if you felt their cause was just.

Marius, Arbiter of Greater Sacramento

[Marius]

Solomon,

To the best of my knowledge, and the knowledge of all within this city, no gargoyle has ever demonstrated a mastery of anything other than their own innate abilities. Therefore, if you wished to separate yourself from your clanmates, that might be a successful solution.

In addition, to the best of my knowledge, no gargoyles aided our Circle Tremere against the Pyramid Tremere outside the city. So they can make no claim against the gargoyles.

With the certainty of these two facts I think I can see why the Tremere chose to attack rather than negotiate. They cannot hope to defeat Vincent and Demetria on their own, but they can discourage them by injuring those they protect. Meanwhile, they best they could do with negotiations would be to create a ceasefire and earn some reparations.

Just thinking aloud here, but if the Tremere had wanted to kill the gargoyles in the Chantry they could have. They wanted the gargoyles alive, knowing it would lure Demetria and Vincent into making a mistake. That plan was foiled. I expect them to up the ante by attacking other members of this city, or to come to the negotiating table soon.

So all should be careful.

Marius, Arbiter of Greater Sacramento

[Vai Castillian]

Solomon, let's forget about why you or I think they're here and venture into the land of the hypothetical.

HYPOTHETICALLY, if the Tremere came to the negotiating table, and they agreed to go away on the condition that you guys stopped calling yourselves Tremere, would you do it?

[Solomon Gargoyle]

HYPOTHETICALLY I don't think they would do that at all, but yes I would.

[Marius]

With the Tremere I have in custody we may have enough to forge a ceasefire this week. I will need Demetria and Vincent to be present at court. Please make this happen Solomon.

[Solomon Gargoyle]

Sadly, I can't make that happen. I have NO way of contacting them whatsoever anymore since they turned off their phones. They don't want to be traced or somehow endanger anyone else if it got out that we know how to get a hold of them, which I do not.

[Theseus Ahroun]

I wasn't trying to dictate anything and if my words made it appear otherwise then I have misspoken. Let me also clarify my position when it comes to the Camarilla as I was more caught up in the debate and don't believe I expressed my opinion properly. If my true desire was to be a member of the Camarilla I would still be there. However to dismiss the offer from a Justicar without fully exploring how his involvement may be used to our advantage may be a mistake. Also if the desire of the majority is an end to the open violence the offer of joining the Camarilla would be the most immediate path to achieve this. The cities current path may lead us to peace eventually, but it will result in the blood and death of those some may consider friends or family. I won't seek to interfere with whatever course of action our leaders choose and to prevent derailing the conversation from where it should be will not discuss my feelings on this in public again.

As for the invading Tremere, no I don't believe there cause is just. I am not however there clan. It actually saddens me that the current course of events may cause harm to the lone Tremere who has earned some degree of my favor. You may consider my current choice of actions that of a coward or many other things. When events transpire that move me to combat I have a sort of battle lust and in this case I would hate to be found in debt to the city for the destruction of members of the invading force of Tremere.

For what it's worth Marius I believe your cause here the "just" and "righteous" one. I only hope it's the best one for the domain as well. Also while I have no place to ask such don't hold my words against my clan as they are mine alone. Our elder has yet to even speak out on this topic.

[Marius]

Well then... you'll have to get creative.

[Vai Castillian]

Wait. You're not Elder anymore? When did this happen?

[Solomon Gargoyle]

When did I say I wasn't Elder? I cannot get a hold of them. Also, in Tremere Clan the Elder deals with the other clans, not inside the clan. Inside the clan the Circle Leader is the one in charge. I am NOT Circle Leader.

[Solomon Gargoyle]

Well then... you'll have to get creative.

You have more means at your disposal to reach them than I do. You could summon them I suppose. That's the only idea I have if they will not answer their phones anymore or if they simply don't have them.

[Solomon Gargoyle]

Theseus suggested something to me in private. Perhaps Asher could help? If your around Asher, do you think you could send Demetria and Vincent a message? I'm unsure how your signature discipline works but it seems like you can easily make your voice heard over distances?

[Vai Castillian]

I was talking to Theseus. He said the Elder of his clan had yet to speak out.

[Wade Wilson]

Solomon: Why? For the same reason it was necessary for me to be questioned with a bone before being 'accepted'. Damage control. Freedom is a wonderful thing, but like everything in this world, it too comes with a cost.

Now do you HAVE to hide your blood? No...certainly not.
However you realize that this means that you will always have the unwanted attentions of Clan Tremere. Which means that wherever you are and whoever you befriend will also be in danger. While I do not doubt the sincerity of those who mean to protect you, the Tremere can be stubborn...and with their recent losses the hunger for vengeance is rumbling in their tummies.

So ultimately the choice is yours, I suppose.

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