Throwing off the shackles

[Frank_Malk]

Now that I am no longer harpy, and have nothing to loose, why does this city even have one? Who cares about status? What, is your own merit not enough to keep you afloat in this tumultuous sea that we must have an antiquated system set up by those we try and try to have nothing to do with, the Camarilla? Why should we follow in their path as lemmings to a hill side? It seems to me that this is just a sign of their continued control over all of us! Must we allow this to continue?

I applaud the founders of this city for being brave enough to take those firsts steps towards a free and safe city, a neutral ground in the coming Wars. But I ask you, did they go far enough? Did they take us to where we, a free assemblage of Kindred should be? It is sad that the answer is no. They left the hulking forms that are just to big to die.

The answer to this is a simple one, we must kill it. We all must throw down together and take on this lumber beast that was sent to us by the Camarilla. If we do not then we will slowly fall back into the pit from whence we came. Back into the squabbling crab pot that we all know and despise. I say LET IT DIE!

Frank Derden

[Theseus Ahroun]

Status has been present in every sect I've traveled in and I believe even those I haven't been part of subscribe to some form of status system to help maintain some degree of civility. If you have an alternative to the idea I'm sure you will find most within the city willing to listen. However to do away with status entirely without something else in place to make sure everyone plays nice together may lead this culturally diverse group down a bad path.

[Frank_Malk]

Do I have a solution to this? What will keep people playing nice? Well to start many people of this and any other court hardly play nice WITH a complicated status system. Think of what we could do if we actually communicated intentions with well reasoned discourse. Instead of bowing and scraping to those who have brown nosed the right people we listen to those who have good ideas that have reasoned through the consequences of said plans.

1) That an Arbiter who is a neutral party is put into power, not to say the current one isn't neutral, and then be listened to. That he is given a set period of time to act as Arbiter and then would give it up. That he could not be impeached or persecuted for this rulings, save if the ENTIRE court calls for it, not just a governing body of elders who somehow know better then the rest of us, call for it.

2) To be Arbiter he must have an understanding of the laws set down for us and by us, through a committee. That he swears that he will be impartial and hold no past crimes with in the city.

2a) Every clan in the city may join and be a part of this council with no more then two members of the clans as members. Each clan would receive only one vote on these matters.

3) He would be added by a Sheriff who would enact the laws set down, and enforce the rulings he has made. A Protector would be in place to create and maintain and Elysium and Rack that would be free to all members of the city.

4) An Advocate would speak on behave of any member accused of a crime and would see that a fair and honest trail be held for him or her.

all of that is just off the top of my head.

[Raven]

The problem with the commity idea is that in this city it has been proven not to work. By defination this is a warlike city as a whole. It is a refuge that must be defended on the drop of a dime. Discutions have there place but it all should come down to being willing to do whatever it takes to protect our refuge.
As far as status goes if the individual has proven themselve they should get more respect then those who are new and haven't proven themselves yet.

[Solomon Gargoyle]

I agree on the more respect but I definitely do not agree with anyone who would put forth the idea that anyone with more status is automatically "right" or "without fault." Deals and Boons should be honored. Someone who does not honor their word should lose status quite quickly and gain a negative reputation.

[Francois Marseille]

A very passionate speech Frank.

I don't believe it could work in it's present incarnation, but you may be able to fine tune your concept, and plant the seeds. It was off the top of your head, so I assume you haven't considered the various ways such a system could be exploited.

I have nothing but confidence that once you take it back to the drawing board, you can come up with something brilliant.

[Vincent Mezzer]

Solomon, I wanted to take the time to allay any fears you may have on the subject of status.

Having status beyond Acknowledged does not mean that the owner is automatically right in their opinions. It is simply a measurement of the social standing of that person amongst their peers, and how others view them for their deeds within the city. Having earned status within a group of peers does show that the owner has put some effort into the city's well-being, whether through battle, influence use for the city's profit, etc.

I completely agree that boons and deals should be honored. One of the principle functions of a Harpy is to enforce the completion of said boons, and root out scandals within the city. Backing out of a boon or deal is indeed scandalous, and should be punished, so that it may not happen again.

[Solomon Gargoyle]

I would also think though that saying someone owes a boon who in fact, does NOT owe a boon is also scandalous!

[Vincent Mezzer]

Indeed. If Frank was, however, given wrong and outdated information, who's scandal would that be?

Or it could simply be a misunderstanding. Thus the reason for investigation.

[Frank_Malk]

I would like to say this. I have brought up an issue with the system of the court, not in an attempt to weaken it, but to make it stronger. I have laid out a few idea on how this may be achieved. They we not accepted. I am not insulted by this. Quite the contrary, I am happy, it means that people have read and thought about what I have written. It can open us up for a dialogue.

Now to put some fears to rest. This process is a long one. It will take a lot of time to to right. The group that meets to figure out, and yes it should be a group so that one person does not dictate the fates of the city, and should be people who are intelligent enough to step a side when needed to allow for the safe protection of the city, need to understand that it will take quite allot of time and is one that is quite thankless.

Raven, many of the great nations started out as warlike and barbarous people, what the Romans would have called uncivilized. Are we just as bad as the? Or have we learn to grow and change and be able to have a talk on topics as impassioning as politics? I think we have and should be given a chance to do so. I agree that these talk have a time and a place, and what is wrong with now? What great threat is rearing it's ugly head over the city? Mr. Delacourt's claim to praxis (a Camarilla term)? Francois' incident? A demon? A demon is a long time in coming, and any issue can be table most readily. Francios and those who followed with him have been dealt with by both the Arbiter and the Seneschal, and I think that this would be a perfect time and place for the Arbiter and the Seneschal-cum-Arbiter to weigh in. Perhaps this is not the place for it, maybe it's best to be done at court.

Frank Jefferson

[Vai Castillian]

But without status, how would the clique of the old and powerful retain their choke-hold on the unwashed masses of neonates?

[Solomon Gargoyle]

It's called influences.

[Vai Castillian]

.... Influences are for controlling mortals.

[Solomon Gargoyle]

Or controlling an entire city? If you think you can only control mortals with it your really not thinking creatively enough.

[Vai Castillian]

Sorry, what sort of influence do you exert, again?

[Solomon Gargoyle]

One does not have to have influences to know how they can be used.

[Vai Castillian]

Right. Got it. Just wanting to know how seriously I should be taking what you're saying.

[Solomon Gargoyle]

I've been around others with influences long enough to see all the various ways they can be used to make another vampires life a living hell.

[Francois Marseille]

To Frank,

I humbly ask that you consider not shelving the threat of this "Johanna Greensboro, or Sayd Galute" Demon issue while you work out the details of your enlightened future for us. I fear that if you do, that future may never come to pass.

Yes I know Sayd can probably still access the forum, and I call you out Sayd. I have heard enough rumor to suspect you have become corrupted by this Johanna creature, and your absence seems to confirm as such. Come to court Sayd, and allow us the chance to determine your guilt or innocence.

I can not speak for the rest of this court, but I know that I will take full advantage of your non acknowledged status, should I encounter you in Toreador domain. Why allow your self to be hunted, if you are indeed innocent of these rumors?

Frank, I don't mean to be rude, but I feel that your suggestions so far are not a better solution to the one we have now. I also worry that drawing the attention of others from this threat is irresponsible at best, and treasonous at worst.

Also, Vai, our status has not been removed. The Seneschal was within his power, due to Marius's absence to restore us to the city. In doing so he did not remove our status. I will not claim any status beyond acknowledged until the matter of succession is resolved, but should Richard secure the position as Arbiter, then I shall expect to be treated in a fashion appropriate to my standing within this city.

If Marius retains his position, then I expect to proceed with the terms of our arrangement.

[Vai Castillian]

I don't really care what happens to your status. Regardless of some flattering adjectives that you tack on to the end of your name, I'll still think of you what I did before.

I know this is probably a stupid question, but are we sure that Sayd and this Greensboro person are worth taking on? I mean, if we can all co-exist, we might be able to work out arrangements to everyone's benefit. I know there's that whole demon thing, but I'm still not clear on exactly why demons are worth us potentially dying for -- or at least being beat up and inconvenienced.

[Raven]

In this case Vai if nothing else they constitute an outside influence that have taken control of some major influence. We can't let that go. That constitutes a threat to us. The demon thing as you put it is also a problem. We need to either eliminate their ability to control mortals and us by default directly or get them to go to somewhere else.

[Vai Castillian]

What I'm not getting, though, is what the danger is? I mean, we're okay with werewolves at our doorsteps, and I've seen our kind allied with all kinds of messed up shit before with nary a raised eyebrow.

It just seems to me like if we can get out of this without having to face demons, I'd be all down with that.

[Theseus Ahroun]

As it stands currently it appears the demon through one means or another has a stronger hold of influences within the city then we do as a whole, especially those that would be used to prevent or cover up masquerade breaches if this gets bloody. It appears to be in a position of strength where it has little reason to just pack up and leave with the asking. Based off what I've gathered of infernalists in general, which I assume would apply to there demon's they serve, any form of alliance or treaty with them would be fool hearty. It appears the hands have been dealt so to speak and it's looking more and more as the only way to bring this demon into control or remove it entirely from the domain will be battle of some sort.

That doesn't mean to identify where this demon is and rush in without a plan. We need to dismantle it's support structure as much as possible before moving on it. We need to learn more of it and weaken it wherever and however possible.

[Frank_Malk]

Now I feel bad for even bringing up the distraction of the demon and it's worshippers. They are of no real interest to me, sorry. And I'm not down playing their danger. I was just saying that when we need to deal with them any comity that is joined to create a set of law, checks and balances and spheres of influence to better govern and run this city, would and should be willing to put those issues aside in order to deal with any threat to the city.

What we would be doing here had been done before, and by humans. A body of men sat down and declared their independence from a tyrannical and oppressive regime. They did so with grace and with eloquence and what they wrote has become one of the longest lasting legal documents ever written. And that was done by people who DON'T have centuries or experience and education on their side.

Now, Mr. Francois, why do you want to stop this project now? What do you have to lose from and open and intelligent discussion on the mater? Could it be that you are worried that after years of status pulling that all of the work would come to nothing here? Because as I understand it, you are one of the Kindred who help form this fledgling city, wouldn't you want to make it better?

Frank Lenin.

[Demetria Von Hausen]

Hmm. A history lesson about America's independence. I do seem to recall there was a war before the Constitution was created. These men who sat down to gracefully pen an eloquent missive also helped defend their land from said oppressive regime. This Declaration of Independence sparked an 8 year war that ended up involving France, Spain, and the Dutch Republic, not just our 'oppressors', Britain.

They knew the value of words, but they also knew the value of being willing and able to back up those words with action.

Words are easy and superfluous at times. Any fool can speak. What takes real gravitas is moving beyond pretty words and getting your hands dirty in the defense of what you believe in. Our revolutionary forefathers here in America had it.

[Sponsored content]