Re: On the Consumption of Titles & Traditions

[Raven]

I have a couple of questions: 1) We as a city are at war on three fronts right now. After Jackson which is out of the city's juristiction so does this rule still apply? I'm confused I understand the need for intellegence but the whole point of war is to destroy the enemy to the point they have to except the fact that they should leave you (our city alone) or they will die. When it comes to fighting a war for survivual shouldn't we do what is nessissary to show all attackers this truth?
2) If our enemies want our destruction isn't it in our best intrest (our home our city) to kill them first?

[Solomon Gargoyle]

Some good points Raven.

[Theseus Ahroun]

I get the feeling what most everyone is expressing is a desire not to be punished for acting in defense of themselves or the city. I agree with you when it comes to the citizens of the domain our enemies who wish to do harm to the city and it's residents should be shown no mercy. While taking a prisoner or two is always a nice it's not always realistic in the heat of combat. For example for me two stop to take a prisoner actually lessens my combat effectiveness as I cannot then use my natural weapons and actually puts me in danger.

[Marius]

Raven - The Sabbat have been quiet, and the Camarilla have made no move to my knowledge. So as far as I know, we face only one front. If you have intelligence to the contrary, please share it in another thread.

Our enemies may want our destruction, but if we can torpor or stake them, that is more effective than destroying them. Therefore, do what you can to take them alive. If you can't, I am sure you will be able to show ample evidence of why it was unsafe or impossible to do so.

I believe that answers Theseus' concern. To clarify: the blanket statement did not say that every death of a vampire would be considered murder, only that it would warrant investigation. It is not an act to be committed lightly upon an immortal. If an individual can show evidence that the act of destruction was made necessary, then the investigation will be completed without incident.

If the perpetrator of the destruction was left no choice, then they shall be acquitted. However, if they had the choice, and chose to take upon themselves the Right of Destruction, then they shall recompense the Arbiter for this transgression.

[Cyrus Goldstein]

I am so gonna make "WWMD" Bracelets! I'll be rich!!

Ach! Forget you read that!! I'll Sue you! I swear! It was my idea first!

Thong - Toast - Turtle - Tu Tu - Ba-loo!

[Theseus Ahroun]

Is it possible for the loons to do there voodoo over a computer?

[Cyrus Goldstein]

Glad you asked. "There" indicates a place as in, "I live here not there." It is the opposite of "here." "Their" is the possessive of "they", as in "They live there but is isn't their house." Here you want to indicate that the house belongs to them. "They're" is a contraction of "they are", so that to say, "They're over there in their new house" means "They are over at that place in the new house that belongs to them."

Glad we cleared that up?

[Guest]

Solomon, take heed. Your questioning of the new leader of this city has become stale in it's lack of understanding. Are you trying to cement your position, or lack of it, by incessantly badgering the policies of Marius in a public forum? If you have questions, come see me.

[Solomon Gargoyle]

I stopped questioning him a while back in this thread. There is no reason for you to draw attention to it now.

[Guest]

Ok, plan B.

For actions that you have been warned about, for endless comments that bring discredit upon yourself and your fellow Tremere and for the last bit of disrespect.

Solomon, as I am Feared, you are no longer Loyal.

Harpy, please record this change.

You have Ack left, think twice...

[Solomon Gargoyle]

Removing my status will not change my mind in things I think are important. Ever.

[Guest]

Not trying to change your mind about anything. You can hold on to your ideas till the sun burns out.

I just object to constant disrespect on a public forum.

I will possibly write one more post in this forum. It would be in your best interest if I did not.

[Sayd Galut]

It is done...Mr. Delacourt

The records are...updated.

[Theseus Ahroun]

Not to be too obvious about bringing up old issues in this topic but just because the Sabbat and Camarilla aren't building an attack force on our borders doesn't mean they aren't a threat to us.

The Sabbat have a large pressence not too far from here and likely won't make any interest in Sac known until they had a sizeable force to send our way.

The Cam over the years has shown a tendency to shy away from open combat and need I remind you that we have an Archon residing in our city. Not that I mean to openly call him a liar but has anyone attempted to verify that Theo is actually on the outs with the Camarilla or are we just accepting what he's said as truth?

Now not that it's any of my business but while neither's making any visable move on Sac to ignore the threat both pose to the city seems like a bit of a mistake to me.

[Marius]

The point of contention Theseus, that leaves you doubtful of the acuity of my remarks, lies in our distinctly different interpretation of the word 'front'. While I can concur with you in every way that the Sabbat and the Camarilla, and mortal hunters like the OSDS are indeed, threats to our existence whose actions and reactions should be considered and weighed. However, in my past, I have reserved the use of the word 'front', as it applies to conflict, rather than speaking in a meteorological sense, to be the sole definition of active conflict, violence punctuated with spells of gathering information for further assaults.

That is to say, if I do not agree we have a conflict on three 'fronts', it is not out of ignorance, or worse, out of a desire to ignore existing conflicts, but out of a peculiar love for the exiguous differences between the words 'threat' and 'front'. In short. While I am ignorant of a great many things, I hope you recognize that I will ignore nothing, least of all those forces that pose a serious threat to our city's stability, be they mortal, Sabbat or Camarilla.

[Vai Castillian]

I think the miscommunication here might be a historical thing.

Theseus, Marius is French. He comes from Europe. Things have changed there a little bit since the whole place fell apart during the great war, but used to be, Europe was like a whole bunch of Sacramentos, except instead of just the Camarilla, the Sabbat, OSDS, and the whatever those Jackson people are, there would also be like five other factions, all of them near enough to dump an army on your shores without warning.

But even with that -- and with people expecting some bastard to invade at random because he felt like it -- nobody considered themselves openly at war unless they were actually in the process, right then, of having their soldiers kill the other guy's soldiers. So from Marius' point of view, we're not at war. This is the status quo. It also helps that while the enemy leaders might be inhumane assholes, they're not inbred and insane.

Point being, I think you guys both see the threat from the other factions for what it is. The difference here is not in understanding, but in with what you both want to do with that understanding.

Not that anyone has asked my opinion, but my background is mercantile, so I don't think of fronts and bloodshed, or political machinations with crazy kings, I think of the silk road and Byzantium. In Sacramento, we've got access to ports, an international airport, trains, and the interstate, and we have the Camarilla, the Sabbat, and god knows who else all of whom, I can promise you, have people among them as pragmatic and profit-oriented as I am. We have the potential to become an irreplaceable marketplace -- and it's been my experience that being useful is the best way not to get killed.

So there you have it. Three perfectly valid ways of seeing the current situation. I think there's a wholesome parable in there somewhere.

[Theseus Ahroun]

It isn't so much the proximity of the "bad guys" that makes me question if these other forces are positioning themselves to affect us. Hell, OSDS is the least of my worries as they haven't actively hunted any of us that I'm aware of. Once they sort there shit out internally that may or may not change. However what I believe Raven was eluding to was that the city in the not to distant past has had to deal with the Sabbat and Cam. I wasn't in the city at the time so I'm not fully privy to every detail but Raven was here and seems of the opinion those aren't closed issues.

Also Vai, when dealing with blood suckers, especially the less humane one's, it isn't about making ourselves useful to either of these groups that's going to keep them from marching in here and helping themselves to whatever they want. It's letting them see a strong enough showing of force that they hesitate and think twice before wandering into the territory uninvited.

[DelRay]

Sirs please do not llet OSDS fool you ........ for they are very active in capturing our kind and killing our kind.... for my work (just north of you) i have many dealings with them..... for i am in an on going battle to find my sire of which they have kidnapped........ so there not bothering you might be because i am kicking there asses up here....(plz excuss my words) if you would notice the care package i sent of the untraceable goverment weapons that still have there blood in the cracks for i am a better fighter than launderer...... so plz do not think that they are not out there because they are and they will try to cappture you or kill you if they can..... so on that note i would like to offer The Great City of Sacramento my services on any attack agianst OSDS for it might aid me in finding my Sire...

[Vai Castillian]

As to whether they're ramping up to make a play on the city? I can answer that for you. They are. The question is whether they'll ever go from being prepared to attack to actually attacking.

There are multiple ways to stop that. There's a superior show of force, there's diplomacy, and there's being too valuable to wipe out. And probably other ways that I'm not thinking of. Each of those tactics has its element of weakness. You've got a clear idea of the ways that diplomacy and mercantilism can fail. I'll tell you how force can fail. The other guy, who has way more assets than we do because both the Camarilla and the Sabbat are way bigger than we are, recruits, embraces, or buys a bigger, badder, meaner fighting force.

To sum up: Threat? Yes. Only one way to deal with a threat? No.

Maybe your way is right. I don't know. But maybe Marius' way is right. Or my way is right. Or maybe we need some kind of hybrid that uses all of our ways, and maybe a few others for spice. Which would require us all listening to each other and setting aside our egos, so it's probably not going to happen, but maybe it should.

[Solomon Gargoyle]

Sounds like the other guy would beat us on the mercantile front too then. If they have the resources to buy, recruit, and embrace a bigger fighting force because they are bigger than us then it stands to reason they would also have a better mercantilism.

[Vai Castillian]

How does it stand to reason?

[Solomon Gargoyle]

The Sabbat and Camarilla are far bigger than us, far older too. They have more cities, more people and more resources. It very much stands to reason. The Camarilla especially has far more resources on the mercantile front. We have one city. They have cities all over the world and many Elders who have built up those resources for centuries. Your reasoning was that because they are bigger they will have far more force than we do. I'm simply following that logic and applying it to mercantile as well.

[Marius]

But the logic of war does not correlate directly to the logic of peace, or in this case economics. The principles of economics suggest that the more suppliers and purchasers you create, the greater the advantage to the centers of commerce such as LA and San Francisco. Vai is proposing that we become the center of commerce. Maybe that is possible, we have a lifetime to attempt it. It is better than living in a state of war.

To return to the discussion of a show of force, I agree with all involved that it is necessary to show our strength to Sabbat and Camarilla alike. That is why Jackson is critical. After engaging them in conflict, failure to demonstrate overwhelmingly, our ability to dictate the course of their future, would lead to those who watch us, waiting for an opening, to believe that they can dictate our future to us.

Jackson is critical not only to eliminate a drug problem, and the collusion between shifters and kindred, but also because those that watch us will gauge our strength based on our success. I am prepared to struggle for this city's continued independence indefinitely regardless of the outcome.

Until the issue of Jackson is resolved, any interaction with Sabbat or Camarilla factions will be from a position of weakness. Therefore, I refrain from contact at all. That does not mean I am ignoring them. I am happy to listen to them, and any who would bring me news of them.

[Dellana Felps]

Perhaps I can help explain the Mercantile situation in a different way. We can't possibly compete with the amount of product the Camarilla can move, sell, transport etc. They as a whole entity can easily surpass our potential for growth in the Transportation industry, and Mercantile operations.

However, we won't be in competition with them "As a Whole" Our customers, if you will, are the local kindred of California. If we make ourselves invaluable to our local surrounding entities we will have the protection we seek.

If I understand Vai's suggestion, or perhaps I should say vision, we have an outlet to the entire world via our International airport, and many other avenues...Our customer base...which incidentally surround us....are a diverse group that doesn't like to trade between each other....We could in theory pass goods back and forth and take a cut of profits both ways. Everyone prospers, and we are protected. I believe she suggests we take advantage of our Neutral status?

These are not my ideas...I'm just trying to explain what I gathered from Vai's comments. I'm also not saying this will be easy, or that it will work at all. It has a potential to explode in our face... We don't want to be seen as "Worth The Risk" for a faction to conquer us.

[Theseus Ahroun]

In my history dealing with the Cam and Sabbat if they feel they can simply replace us with someone they can control easier then an independent group they will, especially with the Cam. The Sabbat doesn't seem as concerned with passing there time with mortal hobbies. Of course they may want Sac simply for the sake of not letting the Cam have it. To openly deal with either without the strength to keep either group out is to welcome trouble.

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