Re: On the Consumption of Titles & Traditions

[Solomon Gargoyle]

Most likely that will NOT happen with the Cam. The Camarilla considers anyone who is not Cam or Sabbat an Anarch. So to them we most likely are not considered neutral.

[Vai Castillian]

Look, the biggest predictor of success when you're selling something is your market. How big is it, and how hungry is it for what you have to sell? It doesn't matter what your resources are if you're trying to sell the same thing to the same people as everyone else.

THAT is where Sacramento has an advantage. Because we become a hub through which the Camarilla and Sabbat can increase their market share -- by selling to each other. Most won't be willing to take advantage of the opportunity, but those who do will value the city way too much to let their drum-beating friends take away the gold mine. Because they will have twice the market share of their patriotic brethren.

And that's why Sacramento only works from the mercantile perspective as a free city, and why it has jack-all to do with the resources of the Camarilla or the Sabbat.

Y'all did get the Byzantium reference, right? I thought that was a pretty clear illustration, but I'm guessing not?

[Vai Castillian]

Oh, and Theseus: I've tried to explain that there's more than one way of looking at this. I really hope things are not as you say, because if that's the case, then it's only a matter of time before Sacramento falls. Not to disparage your combined fighting prowess, but you're outmatched from the brute force perspective.

[Marius]

It will be myresponsibility to thread the needle, walk the razor's edge and sundry other metaphors that imply a delicacy of both appearing to be neither anarch nor Camarilla. I believe that the traditions, as I have interpretted them will support that conclusion. As for the Sabbat, they will respect only strength I fear, the promise of compromise does not entice them individually
and will not be acknowledged publicly by their elders.

I do think that Delana has the gist of it. We can host traders and buyers from LA and SF that would not be able to trade in their respective cities. This vision is distant though and will nit be created by me but by those willing to take advantage of such opportunities. For now I will focus on establishing the same level of tolerance with our neighbors that the late Baron Ponious was able to maintain through a mixture of strength diplomacy and negotiation.

[Solomon Gargoyle]

The Camarilla consider anybody who is a vampire and isn't a part of them, an Independent Clan, or the Sabbat, to be an Anarch. They just lump a bunch of people together. Autarks like us, Mercenaries, Nihilists, ect all are considered "Anarch" regardless of if your actually part of them.

[Vai Castillian]

Some of the idiot ideolgues might think that way, but I can tell you from experience that they aren't all idiot ideologues. In fact, in the Camarilla, I'd go so far as to say that pragmatism rules. I don't blame you for not seeing this, Solomon, because it takes a certain amount if experience with the Camarilla to see this, but there are a lot of things that everyone pretends are so, even though everyone knows the party line is a lie.

Vampires ally with the Camarilla because they like the relative safety and stability that its complex social stucture creates, but whatever they might say about all independants being Anarchs, if you can prove that you can respect the stability that they require, and if there's some good reason for dealing with you, they're generally willing to turn a blind eye to little inconvenient truths.

[Marius]

It obviously worked for Baron Polonious, and while I don't compare my abilities to his I am willing to make the attempt.

Edited By Story Teller. Keep OOC Views out of IC please.

[Raven]

The only problem with diplomacy with the Cam is that there are several people in this city with past histories of bad blood with the Cam. This is not a problem just concerning Theo. We cannot forget that fact. Only time will tell how it all pans out.
The Sabatt on the other hand is differrent altogether.

[Guest]

Yeah, well... Cam and I have a real issue. Better said, Cam Tremere and I have a serious issue. I can think of several individuals in particular that would like nothing better than to stake my body out in the open and have some ghouls film the fun. I knew that going in, it's my problem. However, any "negotiations" or accommodations would be seriously hampered by that fact. Sacramento Tremere can only deal, as I see it, from a position of strength and at least local power.

[Raven]

The problem is that the city a while back went and through a monkey wrench into the plans of a justicar so that isn't a small inconvient truth unfortunetly. I think the trade idea could work on a local level and then expand but that will take time.

[Solomon Gargoyle]

I have more than enough experience with the Camarilla and pragmatism does NOT rule in it. There are some who see through the bullshit yet, but those are usually the neonates in my experience. They do not set policy and make the big decisions. The elders do and most of them have the view that if your not with them or the Sabbat your an Anarch.

It probably worked for Baron Polonius because he was Giovanni, an Independent Clan with much influence already.

Edited by Story Teller. Do not put OOC comments in IC please.

[Francois Marseille]

I am well aware that Mr. Polonius was not of the Giovanni clan. It was made abundantly clear during several of our various escapades that our former Baron was of clan Lasombra. This fact can be verified by quite a few of the more veteren of the city's inhabitants.

As for his influence - Mr. Polonius was a very old Kindred. Likely from the Roman times, if the rumors (and his fashion sense) were correct. I'm quite positive a man of his stature could garner support from quite a few sources.

[Larissa Johnson]

Francois, I thank you for correcting the erroneous information mentioned. I too would like to mention that Baron Polonius was definitely not a member of Clan Giovanni, he was Clan Lasombra. I do not know where such this information of his supposedly Giovanni Clan origins came from, but it is decidely incorrect.

[Solomon Gargoyle]

I am simply repeating what I was told of him. Apologies to clan Giovanni and Lasombra then.

[Theseus Ahroun]

Yes Vai, I didn't get your reference with your lips so firmly planted on Marius' ass. We both are making our points based off the inherent greed of our kind. I however am saying accumulated wealth is the lesser driving force of greed. Power and control over the mortals or even better over other supernaturals is from my experience what most driven to action care about.

In regards to the Cam and/or Sabbat it is highly unlikely we would ever feel the full might of either group. I doubt most outside of California are too concerned with the status of Sacramento and unless some heavy personal favors are called in wouldn't be bothered to come mess with us. It's the local's we primarily need to worry about and neither would be willing to compromise there "home city" to put together to massive of an invasion force. Now all that being said that to me means we would stand a very good chance in any open battle with either group. It's those who move more quietly behind the scenes that I don't know we are quite as prepared to defend ourselves from them moving in and taking control of the city from underneath us.

Now lets for a second discuss why Sacramento is a strategic trophy for either the Cam or Sabatt. It isn't because of the airport as SF and Oakland have at least the same scale airports there. It isn't the ports as Stockton, SF and Oakland all have equivalent or greater shipping ports. I believe Stockton and Oakland even have sizable railway transit. So from a logistical and mercantile standpoint Sacramento isn't very special. The advantage possessed by whatever supernaturals have control of Sacramento is once they have enough control over the mortal population of Sacramento laws and policy can be put in place that will affect every living and unliving thing within the limits of the state.

Now for Mari... Let me start by saying as I came up with him for a time back in the days I knew Polonius well and you are not him. Polonius was known by both sides as a vampire not to be tested and as such had a level of notoriety within our kind that would lead to some hesitation before stepping into his domain with bad intentions. Also as Francios suggested, Polonius had many... many favors he could call upon to help buffer his domain from those of our kind. All that being said it still didn't work to completely keep out all the bad guys. So you think you can fill Polonius' shoes? Good luck. If your going to openly attempt to enter negotiations with the Sabbat with what they could very likely see as an active Camarilla Archon residing in the domain you may have some bad luck. The Cam doesn't appear to be much easier to deal with as we not only don't have anything tangible to offer them but have actively worked against there interests in the area.

I plan on circling the Gangrel wagons so to speak and taking care of my own so do what you will.

[Marius]

Theseus,

I've been more than willing to discuss our respective positions. I've recognized you have good arguments and even offered to discuss them with you and to take your advice when we have the time to speak of it in depth. Instead you offer ultimatums, insults and restate the obvious. I know I am not Polonius, but as the most successful example of the past two decades, I will model myself on him. Thank you for your well wishes. I hope that if I am successful you will be able to enjoy that success along with the rest of the court.

[Jordy Masterson]

Hold on fer one cotton picking minute.

We all voted for Marius, and even you agree these are hard times Theseus. We gotta stand by our leader, do what we can to make things right.

Sure some times his fancy words go right over my head, but ya all asked him to do a job, and I think he's doing the best he can. I think y'all should take a breather, and do what I do. Take on one thing at a time, and keep at it till ya git-r done.

[Vai Castillian]

Okay, yeah, this has gone past where it's fun to play anymore.

Theseus, I'm gonna be sending you a more personal note, but anything I want to resolve between us doesn't need to be aired for everyone to eat popcorn over.

[Guest]

Okay, yeah, this has gone past where it's fun to play anymore.

Theseus, I'm gonna be sending you a more personal note, but anything I want to resolve between us doesn't need to be aired for everyone to eat popcorn over.

If I could I'd include an audio file of me chuckling in glee.

Hmm, I agree with basic premise of what has been said and can see the merits of most opinions expressed here. The best we can do is support our voted for leadership. I think the premise is based on reasoned thought, although some may not agree. Marius deserves our support till at least some of his plans can come to fruition. But, of course open discourse is encouraged. Respectful of at least...

[Raven]

While I agree with Theseus on some points I disagree on others. No matter what an individual's opion is of another, city offices if nothing else should be given some respect. For example I respect you as my elder but the above rant proved what? Everyone gets frustrated with change, only time can tell if it is good or bad but with Jackson looming over us this might not have been the best time for this.

Personally I believe in what this city can be. That is my personal choice, my truth if you will. Not everyone views this the same way. That doesn't make them wrong anymore then it makes me wrong it is a different opion only time will tell which view is the best one. That said we are at war for now and need to work on that alone.

[Raven]

Theseus will "circling the wagons" really work in the long run? I may not like some in the city but while they are a part of the whole I can't in good conscience "leave them to the wolves" and let the city fall.

[Francois Marseille]

I must say that I have to agree that this is not fun anymore. We've been nattering on for quite some time about various nit-picking ideas here on the public forums, airing grievances better left for a more intimate venue.

Marius has not been given the chance, truly, to prove that his ideas can work. He was just elected at our last gathering and has not been given the chance to even hold his own court yet. Before we all begin to tear ourselves apart, why don't we give his methods a try?

[Raven]

I have to say I somewhat agree with you.

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